“Essay 3: Poetry A”
INTRODUCTION to the POETRY ESSAY
In the Final Exam, you will choose to write on any 1 of the 5 poems we read, as long as you find the prompt for that poem manageable. We will not be doing comparison/contrast, just the close reading of 1 poem.
You will be given the prompts containing the questions by group email on Friday, June 5 at 4 pm, and you will need to submit the completed essay to my inbox by Monday, June 8 at 5 pm. The essay should be between 600 and 1,000 words. Please use the word count feature.
You will be given the prompts containing the questions by group email on Friday, June 5 at 4 pm, and you will need to submit the completed essay to my inbox by Monday, June 8 at 5 pm. The essay should be between 600 and 1,000 words. Please use the word count feature.
The essential literary terms for you to use in discussing poetry on the final exam are as follows:
Trope: Any word or phrase which serves as a figurative substitution for a concept, word, or phrase. (In your previous education, you may have encountered the terms, metaphor and simile: these are both part of the larger category tropes. Irony, symbol, hyperbole, metonymy and synecdoche—all of which are listed for the poetry section of the literary terms in our Writing and Literature Textbook—are all tropes, too.
Image/Imagery: Language that gives a visual, auditory, kinesthetic, or other sensory description—but often visual. Frequently, an image ALSO functions as a trope.
Free verse: Unrhymed poetry that does not have a strict, regular, traditional pattern of meter. (Ramanujan and Ashbery’s poems are free verse. But they have very different average line lengths.)
Here are the relevant sets of definition involving traditional iambic meter for Dickinson and Alvarez’s poems:
Iamb: A metric foot composed of an unstressed syllable followed by a stressed one.
Iambic Pentameter: A prominent meter in British and American poetry consisting of 5 feet of iambs. (Trimeter has 3 feet; tetrameter has 4; hexameter has 6, etc.)
Hirata’s poem is an example of visual poetry, sometimes also called shaped poetry.
At times in my video and written blog lectures, I refer to other poetic terms, such as personification; you can locate their definitions in the Writing and Literature Textbook.
Please click on this link in order to watch my YouTube video on Ramanujan’s poem, “Pleasure”:
Discussion questions for Julia Alvarez, “The Therapist”:
Is this poem, which does not rhyme, in iambic pentameter, or in 10 syllable lines that are not iambic pentameter, or is it just in free verse?
Is it possible to tell the speaker’s attitude toward therapy? If so, how? If not, why not?
Is it possible to tell the speaker’s attitude toward her therapist? If so, how? If not, why not?
Describe the use of irony in the poem?
What is the significance of the repeated words “sick” and “mean”?
from Giselle:
ReplyDeleteI think the significance of the repeated words "sick" and "mean" is probably because of what society think of when they heard that someone is going to therapy. They think something is wrong with them. Also
Giselle, the poet may be presenting an unfortunate stigma about therapy that should be questioned. She may be implying that having some psychological difficulties is not a "sickness" but a normal thing to work through.
DeleteI think it was ironic that the first person narrator was laughing with the little girl calling her brother sick even though he/she was goes to therapy weekly.
ReplyDeleteElvin, since this is a poem, we can call her the speaker rather than first-person narrator, a term used for fiction. Irony is definitely a possibility, as you say, and also the speaker may be amused that the little girl is expressing to a stranger something that you will ordinarily not say about personal matters, because small children don't have such inhibitions.
DeleteProfessor, where can I find your youtube video??
ReplyDeleteGabriela,
DeleteThere will be 4 YouTube videos on 4 poems, and the URLs will be posted next week, but there is no video on Alvarez's poem, because I believe that we can handle it very well in discussion without my initial input.
This is from Edona:
ReplyDeleteIs it possible to tell the speaker’s attitude toward therapy? If so, how? If not, why not?
It is possible to tell the speaker’s attitude towards therapy by showing the way the speaker is using certain words to express herself, but it’s hard to open up at first.
Is it possible to tell the speaker’s attitude toward her therapist? If so, how? If not, why not?
It is possible to tell the speaker’s attitude toward her therapist by being open and speaking what comes to her mind.
What is the significance of the repeated words “sick” and “mean”?
The significance of the repeated words is what society thinks of someone that goes to therapy.
OK, Edona, but what do you think the speaker's attitude toward therapy is? Positive or negative or mixed?
DeleteEdona:
DeleteMixed attitude because she sees how open the little kid is very open to a therapist and it shows she can too but she’s also not wanting to be as open because she’s a stranger to her.
well when you speak there is people that listen to the way you talk and hear if you have attitude or not.
ReplyDeleteThat's true, Ethiel. The speaker is listening to the way other people talk in the poem. How does she describe the attitude of the therapist or anyone else mentioned?
DeleteThe speaker acknowledges the way the therapist work: "having to know but not appear to know so patients search out answers on their own." I don't know if she dislike or not, the fact that he knows it all.
ReplyDeleteYes, Gabriela, this is a very important part of the poem. This is a typical Freudian strategy not to answer the patient's questions but only to ask questions of the patient, but it is also prominent in some other schools of psychology. The questions are supposed to induce the patient to "know" what the therapist "knows." Earlier, Elvin talked about irony in the poem, and Gabriela is right that we have no certainty about whether the speaker is ironically reflecting what she considers a "game" that the therapist is playing with her or whether she believes in the future effectiveness of the therapeutic process, but maybe the side that you take will depend upon how this part of the text fits it in with the attitude described in the poem as a whole.
DeleteI think the speaker does dislike the therapist because at the beginning of the poem it seems she was talking about him in a sarcastic way "Being wise all day probably takes its toll, having to know but not appear to know".
DeleteYou have a very convincing reading of the tone, Jaimy!
DeleteThe Freudian strategy is called free association. Basically it is a method of accessing the subconscious thoughts by examining the first impressions or feelings associated with subjects.
DeleteI encourage those who have not engaged in the discussion of this poem to add your comments asynchronously (between now and Wednesday morning before class). I do not know whether or not I will do a summary of the discussion, but if I do, I will make it part of the weekly "Announcements" email that you will get this coming weekend.
ReplyDeleteHi Professor,
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean by close reading?
Jaimy, close reading is the technique of paying careful attention while interpreting to every single part of the poem. The opposite of close reading is talking about the poem in general terms or discussing only a relatively small part of it.
DeleteI think the narrator has the ides that she already knows what her therapist is doing to help the "sick and "mean" patients he has including the narrator. It shows by the way she keeps saying throughout the poem the techniques being used by the therapist.
ReplyDeleteThis is poetry, so it's a speaker, not a narrator. The speaker does display knowledge of the therapist's techniques, and she may have an ironic perspective on them.
DeleteThe words "sick" and "mean" are being said to the people that go to therapy. But for the narrator it seems as if being "sick"and "mean" it's just another everyday life problem people go through in life.
ReplyDeleteYes, Jaimy, the poet may be trying to normalize the concept of people judging each other as "sick" and "mean" in the course of everyday life.
DeleteI see the narrator's attitude toward therapy to be morose. The patient focuses on all the negative aspects of therapy. Clinging to the child's words of "Sick" and "Mean", and comparing all the confessions in the offices as "the whole sad gamut of inhumanity."
ReplyDeleteI also don't think he has a particular positive impression of his therapist since he never gets an answer to his questions. Describing his grin as "sly", so I don't see a close or trustful nature. Even describes the process of therapy with him as "Hoops I'll leap through into happiness", almost a chore for the patient.
Freddy, you argue persuasively for your perspective.
DeleteI think the significance of the words “sick” and “mean” being repeated can be the speaker having a negative stigma about therapy or maybe the speaker means that just because you need to attend therapy doesn’t mean
ReplyDeleteyour “sick”
Kaniya White
Both readings are very possible.
DeleteYes I agree
DeleteKaniya
Good Morning,
ReplyDeleteAfter reading Ramanujan it felt as though the monk was using an extreme sensation to counter another extreme. Self flagellation has been used by many religions around the world as a means to avoid straying away from their oath.
The mentioning of Mangoes is a symbol of sex as they are used as aphrodisiacs as well.
Freddy, you are making significant points that analysis of specific tropes, images, and abstract formulations can support.
DeleteGood Morning professor,
ReplyDeleteWhen I first read the poem, I felt that maybe the monk was trying to associate the pain the ants brought him with pleasure, so that he couldn't be tempted to other things anymore.
Well, maybe you should hold onto that idea, because he actually says, "Great Pleasure!" But then again, do you feel that he is just reciting a "formula" ("formulaic cry") without actually believing it?
DeleteBut also, Gabriela, the speaker says "no longer a formula/ in the million mouths/ of pleasure-in-pain." "No longer a formula" could mean that this "great pleasure" is actually experienced within the pain or it could be ironic, because the speaker may feel that the monk is deluded in taking "pleasure in [his] pain."
DeleteApropos of Freddy's comment about "the monk... using an extreme sensation to counter another extreme," I'm wondering whether some of you believe that the tropes and images and abstractions of the poem convey Ramanujan's attitude toward the monk's behavior? Does the poet seem to admire this character? Does he find him amusing or silly? Does he respect the intention but disagree with the means of achieving it? Or is it impossible to tell what Ramanujan, through the poem's speaker, thinks?
ReplyDeleteI believe Ramanujan admired the monk and was conveying the punishment of his sexual desires in a positive way, to also give sustenance to the world around him by feeding the ants. Almost deepening his connection to the world around him.
DeleteI just finished watching the video. Thank you it help understand the poem more. when i first read it and the title i also believe that he was going to given in to his sexual desire and then plot twist it was about the ants.
ReplyDeleteGiselle, I think Ramanujan DID intend his readers to believe that the monk would give in to his sexual desire: "lusting now as never before...." and he creates an elaborate description after that narrative detail lasting at least 4 tercets (3-line stanzas) so this creates a lot of tension and the reader's expectation of the possibility that he must fulfill that "lust."
DeleteGood afternoon,
ReplyDeleteI think that the monk was in a way trying to punish himself for thinking about touching himself or anything that would mean breaking his celibacy.
Jaimy, you are adding a new possibility to the interpretation: he feels "bad," so it is "pleasure" for him to give himself "pain" and to show his unworthiness. Perhaps Ramanujan is revealing masochism, and if so, I wonder whether he takes a positive or negative view of this masochism.
DeleteThis is something I will also add to the main section of "Essay 3: Poetry B"
As we approach the end of the synchronous discussion for today--which of course can continue asynchronously-- I think, when it comes time to prepare for the final, it's good for members of the class to compare and contrast the points of view raised about the Ramanujan poem--or whichever of the 5 poems you will choose to discuss on the final--and figure out which perspective seems to be justified by the actual progression of words in the poem itself (and not just in your own subjective ideas about the philosophical or social or psychological content of the poem). I'm going to avoid the temptation to "summarize" the points of view in a neat package for any of the poems, because when you do this yourself, you develop the mental "muscles" necessary to come up with your own interpretation. Of course, you can always ask questions about problems involving the interpretation of particular parts of a poem.
Professor Fink,
ReplyDeleteThe poem was confusing at first and I was lost. Your youtube video helped me figure it out. I think the monk is more into lust in a sexual desired way than love.
- Jenny Lin.
OK, Jenny, that's quite possible, but he also wants to go beyond his lust to achieve a spiritual state, right?
DeleteProfessor although I did too find the poem to be confusing at first but the video quite helped capture the image through the monk. I believe through body expression the monk is getting closer to its higher self.
ReplyDeleteDarry, so you're saying via the term "body expression" that the pain he experiences gets the monk closer to his higher self. That can be argued, especially because there's a traditional of belief in that idea.
DeleteThis is from Madelin:
ReplyDeleteTuesday 5//26
With the help of your video I think this poem was about having a forbidden desire. Hence the "all philosophy slimed"
to me it mean that everything he was taught or believed as a Monk was tainted because of all these dirty thoughts. In the end when it came to the red ants were they tattooing his pleasure? “Once naked, once even intangible”, does that mean that his body was once untouched but after having these thoughts is it now dirty?
This poem was a little hard to understand, I watched your video twice but I think Im still a little lost if not confused.
Madelin, there may be another poem that you will feel more confident about discussing in the final, but I think if you look at the overall discussion of different points of view in this comments section, you will have a clearer sense of ways you can interpret Ramanujan's poem.
These are Madelin's responses to the questions about Alvarez's poem:
ReplyDeleteIs this poem, which does not rhyme, in iambic pentameter, or in 10 syllable lines that are not iambic pentameter, or is it just in free verse?
I think its 1o syllable lines, I only came to this conclusion because I clapped it out, learned it from my son in his online class and they are actually in this lesson.
Is it possible to tell the speaker’s attitude toward therapy? If so, how? If not, why not?
I feel like it you can tell what her attitude is she feels like therapy is all about a "whole sad gamut of inhumanity” her vocabulary when she expresses her attitude about therapy she seems pretty descriptive and also doubtful. Just by reading it there’s like a tone that is set with the words.
Is it possible to tell the speaker’s attitude toward her therapist? If so, how? If not, why not?
I feel like you can tell she has some attitude towards the therapist "transparent strategies” like he knows what he’s doing to get you to talk and he holds many secrets that he is not allowed to share. Same thing as the previous question the way she writes her poem out.
Describe the use of irony in the poem?
the whole sad gamut of inhumanity
we practice on each other, which is why
we've come here, sick and mean, to heal ourselves.
The way humans come to see a therapist, to talk about their issues (“sad gamut”) that ('we practice on each other”) which obviously is not true we don’t hurt or act towards each other on purpose its human to lash out or to be sad, happy, etc towards one other we don’t practice it.
What is the significance of the repeated words “sick” and “mean”?
To me sick and mean would stand for troubled? But then again she does taught about it so does it mean such word as sick does not exists? That human beings are just troubled?
Out of all 4 poems Julia’s was definitely a little more easier to understand
Amaya Bonner
ReplyDeleteIs this poem, which does not rhyme, in iambic pentameter, or in 10 syllable lines that are not iambic pentameter, or is it just in free verse? Honestly I am not very sure off the bat, but using the process of elimination I know that iambic pentameter and free verse are wrong. So her style must be the 10 syllable lines.
Is it possible to tell the speaker’s attitude toward therapy? If so, how? If not, why not? The idea of therapy is portayed as somewhere "sick" people go, and is how a lot of people deal with all the inhumanity in the world. Which is why she states "..obscure confessions going on inside: mothers who scold and swat, fathers who drink...", bringing it to the readers attention examples of inhumanity that find themselves in therapy.
Is it possible to tell the speaker’s attitude toward her therapist? If so, how? If not, why not?The speakers attitude towards her therapist are evident from the beginning of her poem, where she states "He seems tired..Being wise all day probably takes its toll..". From her saying that I'm able to assume that she must have some form of respect/appreciation for him and the job he does.
Describe the use of irony in the poem? It states ""Sick!" she repeats and bursts into giggles, and so do I. I sober instantly when he appears.". This quote is ironic because she is there for therapy and so is this little girls brother, yet she laughs when the little girl calls him "sick". I wonder if she ever thought, if he's sick then what is she? I suppose she must have because she stops when the boy comes out, acknowledging something.
What is the significance of the repeated words “sick” and “mean”?
I think that the little girl saying her brother is "sick and mean" sticks with her, and she uses those words to help her further establish this idea that she too must be "sick and mean". Everyone in therapy comes there with something that makes them broken, and are now hoping to heal themselves.
Amaya, I like the fact that you are considering that the speaker might have "some form of respect/appreciation" for the therapist's work along with negative feelings and thoughts. Perhaps the poem expresses ambivalence.
DeleteDear Professor Fink,
ReplyDeleteNo questions so far, this poem is odd but interesting to read and understand.
Jenny Lin.
"Pleasure" was an interesting poem to read but it was very confusing. I suppose its the lack of actual sentences that make understanding this so difficult. From your video I can understand it a bit more, but even so I still feel lost when rereading it.
ReplyDeleteprofessor where can i find the full poem of the therpist ? did you post it on the blog ?
ReplyDelete